"How evil are we talking?"
More from my conversation with Night Gallery designer Josh Zoerner
Welcome to Human Pursuits, the column that features need-to-know names and stories in media and other creative spaces. Today, an outtake from my conversation with Josh Zoerner, founder of the New York-based clothing brand and design studio, Night Gallery – and an afterthought on trust.
Outtake
ES: Something I think about a lot is how to operate if not completely ethically, then at least somewhat ethically under capitalism. Like, I think about writers, or even just content creators more generally, and there are so many companies offering you ad revenue or ways to fund your work, which may not actually be helping people. Do you have any advice on how to navigate or think about this?
JZ: At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, “Is my audience vulnerable to these things?” One thing that gets built into the punk mindset, which can sometimes be a bit toxic, is that you assume everyone is a little dumb, and that they can’t tell the difference between what’s real and what’s fake. You end up looking down on people. You think you need to save them, rather than asking whether they even need saving, or if they might be happier saving themselves. It’s a bit of an arrogant position.
I’ve never had someone proposition me to do something dark for money. If they did, I’d probably be like “I dunno! How evil are we talking?” Like if a certain online therapy provider asked me to hock ads on the Night Gallery, I don’t know if anyone would take it seriously… If you build something pretty true, you don’t have to worry about people being confused. They would probably think you were parodying something. So I don’t know, maybe I would embrace it. I would figure out some way to spin it, in a dumb way.
ES: That’s such a great perspective, and definitely something I’m guilty of. I need to give people more credit.
JZ: Yeah. It happens, though. People get online and think A.I. is real, even if there’s a community note on it. It’s easy to get lost in the sauce. It’s also easy to think a lot of people are stupid because the stupidest people often have the loudest voices. The discerning ones will see something strange on the internet and say to themselves “That’s weird” and then move on.
ES: The smartest person in 2025 is often the person who keeps their trap shut – at least about the things that don’t actually matter.
JZ: Yeah, why ruin your own day arguing with someone who thinks 2+2=5? Like, what are we doing here? If you want to be that person, go for it. But I’m not interested.
Afterthought
I’m not sure why today’s outtake didn’t make the final cut of Josh and my conversation. Truthfully, it’s one of the moments I think about the most.
I consider myself an open-minded person, but that morning I realized (not for the first time, sadly) that maybe I’m not. Maybe I’m too up my own ass, too pre-disposed to think of certain perspectives as misguided, or wrong.
Part of the issue, I think, is that I don’t trust people enough. Chatting with Josh, however, I realized that that line of thinking is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
How can somebody earn your trust if you never give them the chance?
It’s been said that there’s a sucker born every minute – as if being a sucker is a natural state of being.
As if there aren’t entire systems designed to make us look like fools.
As if we can’t find a better way to circumvent whatever evil lies in waiting.
And lift each other up.
Josh Zoerner is a graphic designer and the founder of Night Gallery. He lives in New York.