The Life Embedded with Kate Lindsay (Human Pursuits 27/2/23)
The digital culture writer and Substack mainstay on searching for the internet’s humanity, Harry Potter fan fiction and falling for The 1975.
VANCOUVER – So here’s the thing.
Last May, Kate Lindsay and I connected over Zoom. We talked about a lot: her work as a newsletter engagement editor at The Atlantic, her efforts to quit Twitter and Instagram Stories, her university days in Ohio, and her own Extremely Good™ newsletter, Embedded, which she runs with editor Nick Catucci. It was a delightful conversation and I was excited to share it. So it pains me to admit that I accidentally deleted our interview. Zoom is a great tool, but recording everything on video took up a lot of unnecessary space on my 2013 MacBook Pro. Shortly after our chat, my hard drive ran out of storage. Like a responsible archivist, I decided to tidy up and export my files to an external hard drive.
Somehow Kate’s interview–the only interview that had not yet been transcribed or published–was the only file to go missing. I felt terrible, and I told her so in an email asking her if there was any chance I could get a do-over. Months passed and I never heard back. I worried I had burned a bridge; that one of my favourite up-and-coming culture watchers was out in NYC wondering why she ever bothered to reply to some random Canadian.
But while I accepted that she might never reply, I also knew Kate hadn't explicitly declined my request. Maybe she was busy exploring the world wide web. So I sent the occasional follow-up and hoped for the best. And what do you know, she eventually got back to me. She had indeed been busy.
Since we last spoke, KL has left The Atlantic to focus on Embedded a.k.a “your essential guide to what’s good on the internet.” Our conversation, which has been edited and condensed for clarity, spanned journalistic SNAFUs, her relationship with Twitter since Elon’s takeover, Harry Potter fan fiction, taking influencers seriously, the brilliance of Chicken Shop Amelia, and more. It was like catching up with a new friend. A good reminder that persistence pays off (and that it’s never too late to improve your filing system).
ES: I wanted to apologize again for losing our last interview. I feel terrible.
KL: Oh my god no worries, I’ve actually done that before. It’s the worst feeling.
ES: Anything you’d be willing to share? I love hearing about journalism gone wrong.
KL: Not only did I delete an interview but, because it got deleted, I forgot about it entirely. The PR person was asking “When is this going up?” Like, great question – what was this again? I went looking and I had done a transfer to a new laptop and somehow that file didn’t make it over. I let them know and then never heard from them again.
ES: I remember we had an amazing conversation about social media when we spoke last. You had quit Twitter before everyone else started doing it.
KL: Right, before it was cool. The past year was interesting for my relationship with social media. I know you asked about Twitter but I’ll give you the whole round-up. Laughs. I purposefully didn’t use Instagram Stories for a year. I’d use it for work, or logistical reasons. But if you went through my archive, you’d see nothing really. Social media made me feel like every part of my life didn’t matter unless it was put up for public feedback. Because of that, I felt like every part of my life needed to be worthy of being perceived… The more of my day that was documented, the better my brain thought that day was. You should be able to exist without feeling like you’re on stage.
Twitter was similar but it was my thoughts and feelings, which is even more intimate… People go to Twitter because it’s the fastest way to get news but I don’t think it’s the healthiest way to consume news, nor is it delivered to you in ways that are always responsible… You follow people who quote tweet links with their own take, their own exaggerated version, or doom-er input. With the pandemic and global warming and the war, Twitter kept me in a state of worry and hopelessness, which is the most detrimental part. All these problems require people fighting for a solution and I found Twitter was very good at making me feel like it’s not worth even trying… The more I consumed it, I had this perception that the world was more horrible than it is offline. I’d be writing and going to pottery class and seeing my friends, and I’d have this mindset that the world was ending… It was just making me depressed.
This is not a kudos to Elon Musk, but so many people left [after he took the reigns], the whole vibe of my feed has changed… I can actually scroll and not see a constant stream of bad news. People aren’t using it much, so it’s better. It’s not quite as concentrated.
ES: Jason Tate told me something similar when I interviewed him. How do you feel TikTok factors into this?
KL: One of my big complaints about TikTok is that you can’t pre-emptively list or block off the content you don’t want to see. You have to see it first and then hit ‘Not Interested’ which I think is a really big oversight. TikTok gives you no control of your algorithm in an active way… You should be able to say you don’t want to see diet content, for example.
TikTok has really exposed, I think for younger generations, how misinformation can spread. What’s hard about it is someone spreading misinformation can go wildly viral… And you’ll see stitches or duets debunking the thing, but that’s kind of arbitrary. It’s a roll of the dice if someone sees misinformation and then sees the video that debunks that misinformation. The damage is already done. For instance, I saw this video saying Prince William was writing a video called Heir as a clap back to Prince Harry’s Spare. None of the comments were saying it’s fake, but it is. That’s obviously not harmful but someone made that video because they could.
ES: It’s interesting how moderation has become such a key component of media and journalism… People in the 60s and 70s were not worrying that their content or platforms would cause cyberbullying or misinformation or whatever.
KL: There are a lot of younger internet users who don’t know how journalism works because they’ve grown up with creators. Their framework for how news gets shared is based on the creator model. There isn’t an awareness that a journalist’s job is different from, say, a drama commentator… A journalist needs corroboration and has to follow so many steps. There’s fact-checking, all this stuff that goes into it… This isn’t to say journalists are infallible, you can be skeptical. But there’s a lack of awareness that a piece of content from a TikTok creator is different from an article they’re reading.
ES: What was the first website you ever loved that felt like an online community?
KL: My gateway to the internet is through Harry Potter. I loved fanfiction.net because I wrote fan fiction. When I think of the first thrills of online validation, I still remember the first time I wrote a piece of fan fiction. There was a stats page and I would just refresh it and watch the views go up. It was the most exciting thing in the entire world. There were also Harry Potter websites I really liked being on. All of that stuff lead me to Tumblr. I loved Tumblr. That was the first place I had a community and people I followed.
ES: What was your Harry Potter fan fiction about?
KL: It was so vanilla. I thought Harry and Hermoine should be together. The most heterosexual, least interesting couple! At least if it was Hermoine and Snape people were being creative. I was doing the only other outcome of straight couples in my immediate view… To justify it I would write that Ron was off with Luna Lovegood. I was fourteen and I was too nervous to write anything racy. It would always end with some big make-out scene.
ES: You must be a Gryffindor then?
KL: I would accept Gryffindor but I thought of myself as a Ravenclaw. I would do those sorting quizzes where it was very obvious which answer belonged to which house and I would always choose the ones that seemed like Ravenclaw. I don’t know if I would be placed there authentically. I’ve come around on Hufflepuff. I feel like I could see that for myself.
ES: You’re pretty cerebral but you do have main-character energy.
KL: I’m sitting here wishing I could authentically know. Because now I’m just too aware. I know the stereotypes associated with each house. And I know one person can’t be defined by a single personality trait.
ES: Crazy that the lady who turned out to be a massive TERF had such a narrow view on personality.
KL: This is dicey territory. But it’s such a shame to have this thing that was such a formative part of my life be so totally dive-bombed by this thing she did not need to do.
ES: It’s a bummer because there aren’t any repercussions. She’s already made all her money.
KL: The doubling down is so crazy to me. She’s just really championing it and knowingly alienating her entire fanbase… My Harry Potter books are in a cupboard, which is fitting.
ES: You can’t deny that the books are good.
KL: I brought a wand to college.
ES: You did not.
KL: When I went home for thanksgiving break I brought it back. Like, “Turns out I don’t need this.”
ES: Were you single going into college?
KL: Oh yeah. I think I thought it would be fun to display. And then I realized I didn’t want to display it. I didn’t want it to be how I defined myself.
ES: Speaking of Tumblr, since we last spoke, you’ve also become a big Matty Healy fan. I’m a little hurt you didn’t interview me for the Embedded article.
KL: Are you a Matty Healy fan?
ES: Since the jump.
KL: I genuinely feel like something was done to my brain via TikTok. I know the band has so much history, especially on Tumblr. I don’t know why I never came across it. When I dived in and listened to the music it was like “Oh I’ve heard some of these songs before.” But I’m here now and I know everything about this band. I’m obsessed. And I have no allies IRL. I try to put on their music and my friends switch the playlist.
ES: That’s gonna happen.
KL: It was fully done to me by my algorithm, which is something I thought I was immune to. I remember seeing him on the Chicken Shop date. I was like “Who is this?” because all the comments were swooning. I think he doesn’t look his hottest in that clip. I remember watching it and not feeling anything. But somewhere between that and the videos of him on stage, it tipped and I became obsessed…
ES: Were you in the Harry Styles pipeline and moved over?
KL: I would see the Harry Styles videos but they did not elicit the same reaction. I don’t have that much of an attraction to Harry Styles. I think he’s too manufactured-looking, too classically attractive. But Harry-Tok did lay the groundwork… Every person in the industry would love to replicate what The 1975 is doing, but it’s not the band putting out videos on TikTok… It’s people at the concerts filming it. And I feel like that started at least in my awareness, with Harry Styles. Seeing these moments from millions of different angles from the people who have uploaded them.
Usually, my preferred music is sad women with guitars. Thirsting after a boy band is not in my history. I was literally too busy reading Harry Potter. So it’s all very new. I can now resonate with One Direction fans. The giddiness that you get.
ES: You now understand why women were throwing their bras at Bruce Springsteen in the 80s.
KL: It’s nice because it feels like such a wholesome little thing I hadn’t experienced before.
ES: You mentioned the Chicken Shop date. I think that clip will be seen as an important turning point in the band’s history. The way he and Amelia Moldenberg interacted with each other is very much of the time. This meta-contextualized sense of comedy.
KL: The first clip I saw was the part where he’s trying to kiss her and she refuses… It took me a minute to figure out if it was a genuine interaction… I had to watch it a few times. I thought I was watching an uncomfortable moment but looking at the comments I realized it was a joke I wasn’t in on. And I wanted to be in on it.
ES: We’ve also lived through Amelia and Andrew Garfield. Which fan fiction are you writing in this case?
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KL: What’s so charming about Amelia and Andrew Garfield is that it seems really genuine, in the sense that they’re both failing at the character they’re trying to play because they’re flirting. You feel like you’re watching something you shouldn’t see because it is not a performance.
I think a lot about the characters women have to adopt to succeed in comedy. Her character, to me, seems different… She’s clearly really tapped into something by being a little bit awkward, but in a way that doesn’t make her the butt of the joke. It’s awkward confidence, almost.
ES: As if the character is saying “I’m not awkward, you’re awkward for thinking this is awkward.”
KL: Exactly. She never puts herself down, she only builds herself up. It’s a really good dynamic. And it’s fun to get celebrities to play along… I think it’s fun to get them in a different format because then they can’t do their five canned responses.
ES: It’s interesting how Matty and these TikTok stars make things more entertaining by toeing the line between reality and fantasy. They take the question of authenticity out of it. It doesn’t matter if you believe it or if it’s genuine. All that matters is that you’re entertained, which is a very 1920s idea.
KL: You don’t know what he believes because if he says something outrageous it’s a ‘joke,’ and if he says something you do agree with it’s ‘sincere.’ He’s beyond cancellation… Even when he started kissing people again, I saw conversations pop up around power dynamics. After the last six years, I’m like, what? When you go to the concert of someone you’re attracted to, your secret hope is they will see you in the audience and fall in love. Everyone has that fantasy. So by making it a possibility – that’s amazing. People want to be kissed, he brings them up, and he does ask them. It’s the most harmless thing that makes someone’s night.
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ES: It’s a very mild power dynamic. These are two people encountering each other in one specific instance. It’s not a prolonged relationship... It’s a bit.
KL: It’s a bit where every single person afterward says they’ve loved it.
ES: How do these larger conversations about online identity shape your work with Embedded? It’s gross but I spend a lot of time thinking about my personal brand and I wonder how you bridge influencer culture and journalism. Do you merge them? Or not even try?
KL: A brand is a complicated thing. That’s what is inherent behind all my anxiety around social media. “Am I projecting the right type of person?” Embedded is good because I can put personal stuff in it, but there’s a bit of a buffer… I really like doing stuff about the experience of holding the phone, rather than what’s on the phone. Anyone can explain memes. I’ve done that and there’s value to it. But in terms of what I find interesting to read about and what I find outlets aren’t writing about as much is what being a person on the internet is like versus what’s happening on the internet. A classic Embedded story is the one we just did about how old is too old to be using your parent’s Netflix account.
ES: I loved it.
KL: Thank you! But it’s like that. The unexpected human things that the internet has prompted, outside of how crazy the internet itself is. And then trying not to be cynical about influencers and creators. Even with everyone consuming their labour, influencers are still the butt of the joke. They’re creating all the content you’re enjoying and they’re often doing it for free.
ES: What is a lesson or takeaway from your time at The Atlantic? You helped launch their TikTok and you were doing newsletters and stuff, I’m interested to know your advice on how to grow Human Pursuits.
KL: What’s difficult about places like The Atlantic is it works differently than an everyday newsletter. You aren’t trying to convince someone to just pay for the newsletter. You’re trying to convince them to subscribe to the entire thing, even if they only like one writer.
ES: So maybe what is one lesson you’ve learned running Embedded?
KL: The biggest thing we’ve learned is consistency.
ES: That’s what I struggle with the most.
KL: In terms of general growth, every time you put something out you’ll get even one or two more followers. So if you’re consistent that adds up. And the bigger you get the more your followership grows because people forward or share the content. Personal recommendations are the most effective. The biggest jumps in growth we’ve ever had have not been a story doing really well. It’s when another writer, in their own newsletter or a traditional outlet, says “I really like reading this newsletter.” It’s really simple but it’s weird to see how effective it is.
The Atlantic would do a lot of subject line tests, and when your audience is as big as theirs, I think that’s valuable. But for something like Embedded, I couldn’t tell you what type of subject line does well. I don’t think Substack even has that kind of tool.
ES: I feel like Substack rolls out tools I never use, stuff for the one percent-ers, people with massive audiences.
KL: Like the chat feature.
ES: Exactly! Who would use that?
KL: The one good tool is the recommendations feature…
I should say, the only reason I’m able to be consistent is that I have my editor, Nick, who keeps me accountable. He’s the one who said we needed a schedule, he’s more logistic-minded... I would have a really hard time with it on my own because I would only feel accountable to myself. It’s hard to conceive that the people who read are real. Not that I don’t value them or appreciate them, but I don’t even conceptualize this thing I write as a thing that gets read.
ES: I think that’s healthy. I’m deeply invested in every post until I hit publish and then I move on… If you care too much about the end result and if people are reading, you’ll be miserable.
KL: Compared to other outlets, when I write for Embedded I’m not really thinking about how it will be perceived... Email feels so personal so there’s less of an idea that anyone can look at it… A lot of Embedded’s growth happened when I was at The Atlantic and it was more of a side project. So I wonder how it will change now that it’s the only thing I’m working on.
ES: Did you have any doubts when you decided to make that switch?
KL: Going to The Atlantic was helpful for a lot of reasons. I took the job–which was not a writing job–because I was a little burnt out. [At that time] Embedded was difficult to maintain because it was one of many writing gigs I had. It would often feel a little lackluster. So [when I joined The Atlantic] it was able to be sustained because I wasn’t writing every day at work. I got a little bit of a breather. But then the thing I got most excited about at The Atlantic was writing for The Atlantic, the few times it happened. Over the course of that year Embedded grew enough that it made more sense to prioritize it. If this is what it is as a side project, what would it be like if I could work on it during the day? What if I could turn things in to Nick in advance rather than down to the wire? There are going to be complications I haven’t considered yet but right now I’m still in the honeymoon period.
Kate Lindsay is the co-founder of Embedded. She lives in Brooklyn (I think).