Zach Mack: I try to find the humanity in it all
A conversation with the audio creator
Welcome to Human Pursuits, the column that features need-to-know names and stories in media and other creative spaces. Today, a conversation with podcaster Zach Mack.
For someone who trades primarily in the written word, I spend a lot of time listening to podcasts.
Most of my current rotation is fairly meandering. Pods about nothing, by people I only know para-socially. They talk about what they eat, where they worked out, and who they saw at San Vicente Bungalows or The Comedy Store last night.
I listen and I laugh, and nine times out of ten I forget the conversation immediately. It’s an ephemeral relationship, and I mostly like it that way.
But every now and then, I get a craving for something more structured and insightful. For most of 2024, that meant listening to The Town with Matthew Belloni because I still believe in Hollywood, or The Creator Spotlight Podcast because I still believe in the power of the Internet.
In February, though, I found a new show that I simply can’t stop thinking about: Alternate Realities.
The three-episode series finds host Zach Mack and his father at a crucial inflection point. Zach thinks his dad has gone all in on conspiracy theories, while his father thinks Zach is the one being brainwashed. To try and solve the issue, they make a bet. Zach’s dad lists ten politically apocalyptic predictions that would all happen in 2024. The winner gets $10,000.
Though it doesn’t necessarily have a happy ending, the show reminded me of the power of podcasting. How “audio can be the most visual medium” (to quote my friend Jake).
And so, we had much to discuss.
Our edited and condensed conversation touched on Zach running the Brooklyn Half Marathon, running playlists, complicated auteurs, independent productions, how his family is doing now, and more.
ES: Did I see that you ran the Brooklyn Half Marathon yesterday? How was that?
ZM: It was okay. I haven’t run that distance in a while because I blew out my knee playing football two years ago. I did not train enough, so I didn’t run a great time, but I finished without any problems. It was fun.
ES: What do you listen to when you’re running?
ZM: Well, yesterday I was running with a friend, and so we were chatting for most of it. I usually listen to podcasts or audiobooks.
ES: No way.
ZM: It’s the same when I’m working out at the gym. I don’t like music because it makes me focus too much on what I’m doing, to the extent that it makes me bored or tired. I’ll get too fixated on my movement or my pace, and it burns me out quickly. If my mind is elsewhere, I find I have an easier time with it… With an engaging podcast, I can check out.
ES: I’ve honestly never tried running to a podcast. So you’re pre-loading a couple of episodes of This American Life and just sending it? Laughs.
ZM: Yeah. Right now, it’s a lot of Bill Simmons-type stuff because it’s the NBA Playoffs. I’m listening to basketball podcasts or stuff about TV and pop culture. It’s a little all over the place.
Very rarely am I listening to music. On race day, I might have music right at the beginning and right at the end, because those are the moments where you need a boost. But in the middle, I like to dissociate.
ES: I promise, I’m not only going to ask you about running. But do you use the same songs for your opening and closing? Or are you switching it up?
ZM: I switch it up. I don’t have a race day playlist. Yesterday I was listening to random disco. I had just been arguing with a friend about the best Kanye West albums of all time, so I was revisiting Yeezus a little bit. This was before Kanye West tragically disappeared in 2016 and was never heard from again.
ES: He literally disappeared off the face of the earth. It’s kinda crazy no one ever investigated.
ZM: That’s the alternate reality I like to live in. I don’t like to acknowledge Kanye post-2016.
I try to find the humanity in it all
ES: It’s hard with Kanye because I was such a big fan of him, too. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the app Music League? It basically gives you and your friends a category every week, and you submit songs, and then vote on the winner.
Anyways, one of the categories was songs from your youth that you love. I was tempted to include Kanye, but I just couldn’t. It would’ve been a bad look. I would’ve gotten zero points.
ZM: He’s such a complicated figure… The reason I gravitated towards an artist like Kanye was that he focused on the full package of his art. I like artists who care about everything: the choreography of their tour, the way their album art looks, who they were collaborating with, and how the music was produced. People who are obsessed with the details. I would put Beyoncé in that category
I grew up loving rap, and, at one point, it was clear that Lil Wayne, for example, was the best rapper alive. But I don’t think he was ever the best artist alive. Lil Wayne never gave a shit about his album art, or what his videos did, or how well his performances translated on tour. He was just good at rapping.
I draw inspiration from those auteur types who obsess over everything. Obviously, as we’ve learned, a lot of them have checkered pasts that complicate things. But I was always inspired or interested in that aspect of their art.
ES: It occurs to me that you’re kind of holding two ideas of these auteurs at once. You seem like someone who is able to explore a character like Kanye, and acknowledge his contributions and accomplishments, while also acknowledging his shortcomings.
ZM: I think I try to find the humanity in it all. We’re in a moment where things are polarized, and everyone is dehumanizing the other side. There’s part of that which I understand and engage in, and there’s a part of it that I think goes too far.
An interesting exercise has been the whole “Bill Maher has dinner with Donald Trump” conversation recently, and whether he should have had dinner with him, or should have praised him the way he did after the dinner. I’m sure Trump can be a good hang on the golf course, or whatever, but it doesn’t excuse anything he's said or done. It doesn’t mean he’s not a fascist or a terrible person. We can hold these ideas simultaneously. These are things I’m wrestling with… Trying to find the shared humanity, but also understanding sometimes that’s just not the point. I’m not really interested in hearing about Trump being a nice guy to some people; it’s not interesting to me, and it doesn’t change the situation our country is in, or his policies, or his rhetoric.
ES: Going back to the auteur-ness of it all, do you feel like you approach your work with that level of detail? I’d love to hear about your process.
ZM: 100%. I do try to approach my work as an auteur, and I very much got into this line of work looking up to other audio artists who I felt were approaching it in a similar fashion. Ira Glass, Jad Abumrad, PJ Vogt, Kaitlin Prest. I would place them next to the Quentin Tarantinos and Paul Thomas Andersons of the world. They care deeply about craft… They’re not just looking to simply communicate information or be a reporter.
I was never interested in being a journalist, which is funny to say, as so much of my work is somewhat journalistic. I don’t consider myself a journalist. I’m more comfortable being called a producer or audio creator… I really come to this thinking about craft and storytelling first and foremost. Journalism helps me get there, but it’s the craft and the storytelling that interest me the most. That’s what I really think about and obsess over.
ES: As someone who works in media, the thing I found so striking about your podcast is that not only did the story center on you, but it also centered on your family. There are so many ways something like that could go wrong, but I thought you struck a perfect balance. It didn’t feel exploitative or imbalanced.
ZM: Thank you.
ES: What was it like having to report, script, and produce all of that?
ZM: This project started with me wanting to make a story on my own. I spend so much time making stuff for others, producing for others, and I wanted something for myself.
The Tribeca Film Festival has an audio component, and I wanted to make something independently for that. I was working on a story that wasn’t really going anywhere… A month or so before the deadline, my dad challenged me to the bet. I was like, “This is a way better story.” He did all the things that I was looking for, he gave me stakes, he gave me a deadline. There was a lot of drama, there was good character and plot.
The show was clarifying in some ways… All the things we might not have said to each other directly were said directly on the podcast.
From the jump, my dad was open and interested in participating in interviews and being a part of the project. He was really excited about the idea… So I just started pursuing that on my own. I made a 40-minute pilot, which is very similar to what became the first episode of Alternate Realities. A lot of it is setup — here’s what’s happening in my family, here’s what my father believes, and here’s how he has challenged me to this bet.
I submitted it to Tribeca and, through my friends and network, it got passed around. This American Life came on board, and then shortly after NPR came on board. We already had something to work with because of the pilot, and This American Life and NPR allowed me to maintain the integrity of that initial piece. They’re really supportive and helpful in terms of providing resources and organization, and notes. There were lots and lots of editorial notes and support to help me flesh that vision out further. But yeah, I feel they allowed me to make the show I wanted to make.
ES: Have you ever done an independent production like this?
ZM: Yes, I had done it once before. Coming up in the public radio world, and then new media companies like The Ringer and Vox Media… I never felt like I was able to make my own show, but I was able to do other creative projects.
In 2019, I made a pilot for an independent travel show called Greetings From Somewhere. I made a pilot and a deck and started shopping it around. Eventually, I got funding… I made about 14 episodes, and that was largely on my own. I fully oversaw the editorial. It was my first foray into making my own thing and launching it, and being in charge of it.
With Alternate Realities, I knew it was a shorter story, and I didn’t want to try and build an audience from scratch. It was much easier to partner with a larger, more established team and build off the audience they already have. They were also able to provide a lot of additional production support. I was able to get reporting trips or equipment funded, for example, which was cool.
ES: Did you learn anything from this project, production-wise, that you might apply to future work?
ZM: I became a better writer during this process. I never thought of myself as a writer before this, and this changed that.
I also never had to report on something personal like this. Greetings From Somewhere was not about me, or my emotional state, or my family. There were a lot of growing pains in terms of how to report on your family, and also report on something that was happening in real time. This bet and the relationship between my dad and the rest of the family weren’t things that happened 5 or 10 years ago. It was literally week to week, which was definitely emotionally gut-wrenching. Far and away, this was the most emotionally draining project I’ve worked on…. The degradation of your family is hard, and then emotionally having to wrestle with that and tell the story was a tough process.
I’ve looked at some of the comments on Reddit or Spotify, and one person wrote, “Man, that’s the easiest $10,000 he’s ever won.” It was the most difficult $10,000 I've ever made!
ES: I’m sure everyone is asking about your family. Where are things at with them right now? Do you want to talk about it? Are you sick of talking about it?
ZM: I put so much out about my family that, in some ways, it feels like I’m asking for it. People grew emotionally attached to them, so it feels very natural for people to ask, “How’s your family? What are all the updates?” On the other hand, these are our lives. I want to share what I want to share, but it doesn’t mean the world is entitled to every update… That said, I don’t think the show was a negative experience. People have left them alone, they haven’t been harassed or bothered, thank God.
I also think the show was clarifying in some ways and helpful. All the things we might not have said to each other directly were said directly on the podcast. But yeah, we’re doing okay. We’re in a transition period, and some real things are changing, but I don’t necessarily think it’s changing for the worse. A lot of the damage had already been done over the last 30 years. Now there’s some healing taking place.
ES: You mentioned earlier that you weren’t interested in being a journalist. As someone who is producing stories and working with a variety of teams, I’m interested in how you feel about the pressure to be all things to all people. It seems like media companies favour a Swiss army knife at the moment. Where do you fall on the argument of being a generalist versus a specialist?
ZM: This is a good question. I think of myself as a generalist. I’m not an expert in one area… I don’t know what I'm great at.
As media evolves, it is in all of our best interests to understand the evolution between those two things, and participate in the parts that make sense, and not be so rigid in what it is that you do and are good at.
At the same time, I think if you’re a kick ass journalist, who knows how to report a story, that should be enough. I know a lot of people who are incredible reporters, but not the best at managing their brand online, or creating online content, and it sucks that ability has now become a prerequisite for success in journalism… Obviously, it helps to be good at both. I’m friends with . She is someone who understands the online space and also knows how to report, and I think that speaks to why she is successful in this fractured media environment. But I don’t think everyone needs to be that way.
I would hope that if you are just good at reporting, there's a place for you because we need it. Look around. There’s a war on the truth right now. There is so much misinformation and disinformation flying around. We need smart people who are passionate about the truth on the front lines. If they’re not good at marketing, that should be okay.
Zach Mack is a reporter and audio creator. He lives in New York.