People were able to see themselves in this story
An outtake with Zach Mack
Welcome to Human Pursuits, the column that features need-to-know names and stories in media and other creative spaces. Today, an outtake from my conversation with Zach Mack – and an afterthought on agreeing to disagree.
Read part one of our conversation HERE.
Outtake
ES: I’m sure everyone is asking about your family. Where are things at with them right now? Do you want to talk about it? Are you sick of talking about it?
ZM: I put so much out about my family that, in some ways, it feels like I’m asking for it. People grew emotionally attached to them, so it feels very natural for people to ask, “How’s your family? What are all the updates?” On the other hand, these are our lives. I want to share what I want to share, but it doesn’t mean the world is entitled to every update… That said, I don’t think the show was a negative experience. People have left them alone, they haven’t been harassed or bothered, thank God.
I also think the show was clarifying in some ways and helpful. All the things we might not have said to each other directly were said directly on the podcast. But yeah, we’re doing okay. We’re in a transition period, and some real things are changing, but I don’t necessarily think it’s changing for the worse. A lot of the damage had already been done over the last 30 years. Now there’s some healing taking place.
ES: That’s good. You never know what might happen when you share your life publicly that way.
ZM: Yeah, it was funny to see some of the comments. I took a lot of shit on Reddit. People were saying I left my sister high and dry because the show ended with my dad and me going to this football game. We maintained a relationship. People commented that I didn’t come to her defense. I would push back on that. I think I defended her, and have been straight up with how I feel, and have spoken up on her behalf. But that’s not something she ever asked of me, or expected of me.
[Editor’s note: in the series, Zach’s sister feels rejected by their dad because of her sexuality]
She’s made it very clear that she supports the choices I’ve made, and the show I made, and how I’ve chosen to show up for the family. Everybody is good. I think she has felt incredibly supported by me. People are entitled to their own opinions, but I think the commentators should know that nobody in the family is upset with me.
ES: I think that’s probably a testament to your storytelling. People walked away from the series invested in your family dynamic. Obviously, they don’t have the full context of your lived experience, because the series is only about an hour and a half long, but you can understand why they feel this way.
ZM: Totally. And I also understand the instinct to feel protective of my sister when you hear that story. I get that, and I do think she should be defended and protected. I don’t agree with what she’s had to go through.
ES: It also probably surfaces things for the audience that you can’t necessarily anticipate. Like I was reflecting on moments in my life with my parents, and that feeling where the two sides just aren’t understanding each other. It’s like you’re speaking different languages. Alternate Realities captured that dynamic.
ZM: There are so many entry points for people. Most of us know a friend or family member who has been radicalized by political and apolitical conspiracy theories. But then there’s also the feeling of strained family dynamics. That’s another entry point. And then there’s the queer child dealing with a parent who may not fully understand or be supportive, and that’s something so many people experience.
I think a lot of people were able to see themselves in this story in some way. Maybe some people listen to it and relate to my sister the most, or they relate to my mother the most, or maybe they relate to me, and maybe they even relate to my father. All of that makes the story successful.
Afterthought
On Friday, I wrote that Alternate Realities “reminded me of the power of podcasting.”
I didn’t explain why.
Part of it is the dynamic between Zach and his family – the vulnerability of their conversations. The show presents all perspectives, offering the audience a 360° view of the issue. We see the cause and effect of radicalization play out in real time. It’s heartbreaking, as well as infuriating.
It’s possible this could have been accomplished on video. But there’s something about the intimacy of audio recording that allows people to drop the facade. Alternate Realities is a show, but the moments feel completely genuine.
Zach’s approach to storytelling also feels daring because it doesn't offer easy answers. One Reddit commenter writes that they were “disappointed” Zach let his dad off the hook:
I needed something like: 'You said you were 100% certain. Not certain about the events but uncertain about the timeline- 100% certain. You were unwilling to entertain how you'd feel if you were wrong because you were so certain. And now you're wrong, how does that not shake your assessment of how you assess what you're certain about?’
And sure, maybe that would be cathartic in the moment. But one of the show’s big takeaways is that the power of belief often supersedes everything else. From the jump, Zach’s dad is at risk of losing it all, and yet he persists. He knows people think he’s wrong, but he thinks he’s right.
How can you live with someone like that? For some, the answer is “You can’t.”
But many do. They agree to disagree, and I appreciate that the show explores this dynamic. Because cutting someone out of your life isn’t exactly easy. At best, it’s short-term pain for long-term gain. But depending on the person, the pain can linger. It can manifest in other ways. To me, Alternate Realities is a reminder that, with radicalization, there are no winners, only losers. As Zach said in part one of our conversation, the bet with his dad was the most difficult $10,000 he’s ever made.